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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 13:13:12 GMT
Just curious how you know that Tom Watson isn't popular among the 500,000 membership if you don't look at polls? I'd agree that Boris got a soft response to his wholesale culling when he took up the reigns - most of the rags that support Tory are well on message. I've not mentioned it because I'm happy to see him destroy his party. But that's a different issue. I'm only bothered about Labour because I want to see them do well, I think that means having a broad appeal and capable of housing a plurality of views. This is how TW is viewed outside the party... "Stands up for ordinary people, Credible, Committed, Hard working and In touch with ordinary people." A huge majority of the membership came when Corbyn won the leadership. Week in week out I've seen nothing but complaints about Watsons absence. The NEC have constantly sniped at him for not fulfilling his role and he seems to dodge platforms where big crowds are gathered apart from the party conference. Even if he was popular, he's not fit to be a Labour MP, never mind deputy leader. He constantly fails to grasp the concept of party unity, he's greedy with expenses, he briefs against Corbyn to his media chums and is involved in a pretty disturbing scandal. |
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 22, 2019 11:48:45 GMT
Just curious how you know that Tom Watson isn't popular among the 500,000 membership if you don't look at polls? I'd agree that Boris got a soft response to his wholesale culling when he took up the reigns - most of the rags that support Tory are well on message. I've not mentioned it because I'm happy to see him destroy his party. But that's a different issue. I'm only bothered about Labour because I want to see them do well, I think that means having a broad appeal and capable of housing a plurality of views. This is how TW is viewed outside the party... "Stands up for ordinary people, Credible, Committed, Hard working and In touch with ordinary people." I can totally understand why people believe labour need to go to the middle and have a "broad appeal," but I just don't see the point. And they'd lose my support instantly... If people actually want something that protects public interest, preserves the NHS, looks after worker's rights, attacks big businesses hold and domination of the economy, etc etc etc, it HAS to be a well left of centre govt. The "middle ground" is watered down Tory policy. It's left wing or bust, basically... |
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Post by paulus on Sept 22, 2019 13:45:11 GMT
Worried it'll be bust  You can't do any of those things on the opposition benches... realistically you need some broad appeal to command a majority. My guess is social policy reform won't be a revolutionary event, far more likely a slow and steady improvement. Once you have power you can work towards socialist goals, succeed with them & persuade people to push for more. The things in your list are not the preserve of the far left - the Lib Dems have policies in all those areas. Dismissing the middle ground as watered down Tory policy - I think you really know the real world is way more colourful and interesting than that black & white view suggests. There's many left-of-center politicians/activists that work hard to improve things in very solidly left wing areas - they would be quite insulted to be called "watered down Tories". I guess I'm a pragmatist above an idealist - think we need to be less binary and compromise more, to achieve things. |
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 22, 2019 17:59:54 GMT
The Labour party has achieved more under ideological PM's (Attlee) rather than compromising ones (Blair). We had mass construction of social housing, implementation of welfare and the creation of the NHS under left wing Labour governments. During our more centrist orientated governments we had banking deregulation, PFI, tuition fee's and neo liberal economics. I'll take the left wing approach and after years of our current model, I think the left wing approach is winning over more votes - just look at the amount we gained in 2017. Obviously brexit has become an obstacle for Labour but that doesn't mean we should set our policies more to the center, that would be a massive step back. The Lib Dems are Britains centrists, if people want to vite for the status quo they can always go and vite for them. Labour are now a genuine alternative to what has become normal in Britain.
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 23, 2019 10:35:33 GMT
Worried it'll be bust You can't do any of those things on the opposition benches... realistically you need some broad appeal to command a majority. My guess is social policy reform won't be a revolutionary event, far more likely a slow and steady improvement. Once you have power you can work towards socialist goals, succeed with them & persuade people to push for more. The things in your list are not the preserve of the far left - the Lib Dems have policies in all those areas. Dismissing the middle ground as watered down Tory policy - I think you really know the real world is way more colourful and interesting than that black & white view suggests. There's many left-of-center politicians/activists that work hard to improve things in very solidly left wing areas - they would be quite insulted to be called "watered down Tories". I guess I'm a pragmatist above an idealist - think we need to be less binary and compromise more, to achieve things. I'm all ears as to lib Dems progressive economic policies. They're pure opportunists, as their coalition with the Tories proves. The right NEVER compromise, but once again Corbyn, with ZERO "radical" ideas of actual policy is constantly expected to compromise. And you can bet that if Corbyn, or another left wing PM tried to slowly integrate the policies as you suggest, the moment the first one was done it would absolutely jumped on by the fear mongering press anyway... I get where you're coming from, but I simply don't agree. The only thing that has even brought this question of left wing candidates/parties needing to compromise is Thatcher's (successful) attempts to move the whole political sphere to the right, ably supported, at the time and for the following decades, by the MSM. |
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Post by jacko on Sept 23, 2019 12:05:37 GMT
The Lib Dems were politically cannibalised by the Tories.
But it's undeniable fact that they were a moderating influence on the Tories during that period. The shit show we have witnessed since 2015 under sole Tory rule is proof enough of that. Had the Lib Dems won the same number of seats in 2015 as they did in 2010 we'd have had a better government over the last 4 years. It would have still been centre-right, but it may have had an ounce of competence.
FWIW, I think you're all correct. Joe & Leon are right that it's only the left that can do radical reform. But Paul is right that there's too many people out there who are fearful of big change and you do need to bring some of them along if you're going to win. For all his many faults, Blair understood that in electoral terms. But never went far enough
Fear rules the day now, big ideas barely get a hearing. If the NHS didn't exist and someone proposed it as an idea, it would be painted as crazy & unaffordable within hours, when clearly it isn't.
Thing is though, it's the people who benefit from the status quo that will never vote to change it. Increasingly the vast majority of people under 40 do not benefit, and will eventually form a majority who do vote for change.
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Post by paulus on Sept 23, 2019 14:29:01 GMT
Correct Jack - the NHS was nearly 80 years ago... and followed the world's bloodiest war... it was a totally unique time for our national consciousnesses.
Despite the fact that people drift right as they get older - I don't doubt there is changing attitudes in the younger generation that will be felt long term. But I'm currently interested in avoiding another 5 years of Tory/right wing rule right now. 10 sodding years is enough - think Labour's socialism or bust approach is the wrong path for this coming election.
We'll all be able to tell who was right soon enough!
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Post by paulus on Sept 23, 2019 14:37:15 GMT
Final piece on this for me, just for the record - I am still a Labour party member* and will highly likely be voting for them in the next election. * critical of some policies/leadership, so may get thrown out soon  |
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Post by jacko on Sept 23, 2019 14:56:39 GMT
But I'm currently interested in avoiding another 5 years of Tory/right wing rule right now. Ditto.
I'd just like a government with a social conscience - one that prioritises the basic needs of citizens above all else.
This is where Joe tells me that I have just described a Corbyn Labour government, and perhaps he's right (even though they don't have a monopoly on good ideas. I really liked the Lib Dem policy on adult education last week for instance)
In reality all any government ever does is move the dial back towards their ideal scenario without ever achieving "perfection".
Achieving 50% of what needs to happen in a few key areas with cooperation with other parties is preferable to this endless tribal merry go round that inevitably leads to defeat, and worse than achieving 0%, allowing the Tories to make things even worse
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Brexshit
Sept 23, 2019 17:29:16 GMT
via mobile
Post by joegolferg on Sept 23, 2019 17:29:16 GMT
Correct Jack - the NHS was nearly 80 years ago... and followed the world's bloodiest war... it was a totally unique time for our national consciousnesses. Despite the fact that people drift right as they get older - I don't doubt there is changing attitudes in the younger generation that will be felt long term. But I'm currently interested in avoiding another 5 years of Tory/right wing rule right now. 10 sodding years is enough - think Labour's socialism or bust approach is the wrong path for this coming election. We'll all be able to tell who was right soon enough! Even if we don't get in power at the next GE I still think it's vital that we stick to a leftwing platform and power on. There is absolutely zero proof that centrism will gain us any advantage in the next GE. I still believe that we're in trouble over being on the fence over brexit and if it comes to the party officially campaigning to remain in a possible 2nd referendum, then we could be in even bigger trouble. Thankfully Corbyn seems to be refusing to back remain if it comes to a second referendum. |
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 23, 2019 17:31:50 GMT
Final piece on this for me, just for the record - I am still a Labour party member* and will highly likely be voting for them in the next election. * critical of some policies/leadership, so may get thrown out soon You're safe, mate. The membership purge happened under McNichol (supported by Watson) to try and kick out as many Corbyn supporters as possible in the run up to the Corbyn vs Smith leadership challenge. The new party sec is much less "Stalinist" than the old guard 😂 |
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Brexshit
Sept 23, 2019 22:14:46 GMT
via mobile
Post by joegolferg on Sept 23, 2019 22:14:46 GMT
Labour's position now clear. Labour will negotiate a new deal with the EU and put it to a vote. Naturally, the FBPE crowd start to melt.
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Post by paulus on Sept 23, 2019 22:46:33 GMT
Is that the position that the NEC made unilaterally clear, without consultation to the membership? Sorry - ignore me, couldn't resist. Having a vote on the negotiated deal is sensible - any idea what'll be on the ballot? Will remain be an option? Or just the JC deal & no-deal? Oh and they should stop with the song now, it became embarrassing not long after Glasto. Now it's just super-cringey. |
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Brexshit
Sept 24, 2019 7:17:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by joegolferg on Sept 24, 2019 7:17:02 GMT
Is that the position that the NEC made unilaterally clear, without consultation to the membership? Sorry - ignore me, couldn't resist. Having a vote on the negotiated deal is sensible - any idea what'll be on the ballot? Will remain be an option? Or just the JC deal & no-deal? Oh and they should stop with the song now, it became embarrassing not long after Glasto. Now it's just super-cringey. We'll have to see what's potentially on the ballot. The party unity is strong, they're energized and ready to campaign for the party at the next GE. The song has definitely been overdone but I suppose it's a sort of rallying cry for the members 😂. Obviously the media are now trying to spin this vote as a stitch up, as though Corbyn and Formby packed the hall out with pro Corbyn supporters Lmao. The establishment media have gone all Alex Jones and this is the same media you said Corbyn should be more open and cooperative towards... |
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 24, 2019 7:44:42 GMT
Correct Jack - the NHS was nearly 80 years ago... and followed the world's bloodiest war... it was a totally unique time for our national consciousnesses. Despite the fact that people drift right as they get older - I don't doubt there is changing attitudes in the younger generation that will be felt long term. But I'm currently interested in avoiding another 5 years of Tory/right wing rule right now. 10 sodding years is enough - think Labour's socialism or bust approach is the wrong path for this coming election. We'll all be able to tell who was right soon enough!
It wasn't just the NHS, and it wasn't just immeditaely post war. Labour has proven that borrowing huge amounts of money, (if you don't use it to fund tax breaks!) and investing it in infrasturcture, provides jobs, improves the manufacturing sector and results in more useful stuff for us to benefit from. You know, the stuff that brexiteers moan jealously about Germany over, whilst saying it's because they run the EU and benefit from it.
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