Brexshit

[joegolferg]

Yeah, i suppose it's a good position to take considering the divide and I'm surprised to see even Lib Dem supporters talking about how his stance is even more preferable than Swinsons authoritarian cancelation of Brexit, which would make matters even worse than they already are. I still think it is wrong to have another vote with "remain" on the ballot, that's basically a re-run because the first referendum didn't produce the result that was expected.

[paulus]

There's much more information available now - the first referendum was non-binding, non-specific, poorly thought through & fought under false pretenses. These are very good reasons to present the choices to the people again, to see if they still feel the same.

I don't see how anyone can view the Lib Dem's position as authoritarian, that's just political games imho. Their position is the very definition of democratic. They've clearly stated they won't enter into a coalition with the other 2 major parties - and that if they get elected with a majority they will revoke Article 50. Given they've never formed a majority government of their own - if that happens, it'll be a pretty clear mandate from the people.... i.e. democratic. If they don't get elected with a majority, they will continue to campaign for a 2nd referendum as they always have - again looking for a democratic solution.

[jacko]

Calling the Lib Dem position authoritarian is the equivalent of claiming that a Labour government elected with a majority wouldn't have the mandate to put more money into the NHS because several years ago people had voted for an Austerity government

Total nonsense

I do think it's a s**t policy which is needlessly divisive (although it's no more divisive than the Tories kamikaze No Deal plan that precisely nobody voted for) but it's fundamentally democratic for a government elected with a majority to enact its policy agenda. That applies equally to all parties and every area of policy.

This is one of the big problems actually. Many peoples definition of "democracy" has been twisted. To some people the result on one day over 3 years ago trumps everything. It does not.

[joegolferg]

Sept 19, 2019 13:44:47 GMT paulus said:

There's much more information available now - the first referendum was non-binding, non-specific, poorly thought through & fought under false pretenses. These are very good reasons to present the choices to the people again, to see if they still feel the same.

I don't see how anyone can view the Lib Dem's position as authoritarian, that's just political games imho. Their position is the very definition of democratic. They've clearly stated they won't enter into a coalition with the other 2 major parties - and that if they get elected with a majority they will revoke Article 50. Given they've never formed a majority government of their own - if that happens, it'll be a pretty clear mandate from the people.... i.e. democratic. If they don't get elected with a majority, they will continue to campaign for a 2nd referendum as they always have - again looking for a democratic solution.

They will stop brexit. If given a majority, this is authoritarian behavior. If brexit had actually gone ahead and the Lib Dems wanted to campaign to rejoin, that would be a different thing. The fact that brexit hasn't happened and an attempt by one party to completely disregard the referendum result, shows authoritarian behavior. Also, aren't you afraid of the inevitable backlash from leave voters who are angry that their vote to leave was completely overturned?

[joegolferg]

Sept 19, 2019 14:51:52 GMT jacko said:

Calling the Lib Dem position authoritarian is the equivalent of claiming that a Labour government elected with a majority wouldn't have the mandate to put more money into the NHS because several years ago people had voted for an Austerity government

Total nonsense

I do think it's a s**t policy which is needlessly divisive (although it's no more divisive than the Tories kamikaze No Deal plan that precisely nobody voted for) but it's fundamentally democratic for a government elected with a majority to enact its policy agenda. That applies equally to all parties and every area of policy.

This is one of the big problems actually. Many peoples definition of "democracy" has been twisted. To some people the result on one day over 3 years ago trumps everything. It does not.

It's authoritarian because brexit HASN'T been implemented. If it had been implemented and the Lib wanted to campaign to rejoin, that would be perfectly fine and democratically sound. The fact that they're working to overturn a referendum result is massively different from what you were trying to say in your post.

[paulus]

Of course it hasn't been implemented yet - turned out there was a fair bit of detail that none of the Brexit campaigners even considered, let alone mentioned when campaigning. How many times was the Irish border problem mentioned by Farage, Boris, Hannan et al during the referendum campaign? And what are their proposed solutions to it right now?

There's literally dozens of possible Brexit scenarios - precisely none of them described in the original referendum question. It was un-implementable due to what we call in my job, "a requirements deficiency".

[joegolferg]

Sept 19, 2019 16:45:12 GMT paulus said:

Of course it hasn't been implemented yet - turned out there was a fair bit of detail that none of the Brexit campaigners even considered, let alone mentioned when campaigning. How many times was the Irish border problem mentioned by Farage, Boris, Hannan et al during the referendum campaign? And what are their proposed solutions to it right now?

There's literally dozens of possible Brexit scenarios - precisely none of them described in the original referendum question. It was un-implementable due to what we call in my job, "a requirements deficiency".

So does that mean we as a country are being forced into a "union" that we can never leave? We can vote to join it but we can't vote to come out, do you call that democracy?

[paulus]

Nope - just saying that the simplistic question put to the people in the first referendum is why we’re now in an un-implementable mess. The question needs to be better posed - we can do that now with the benefit of all the extra information.

My preference has always been for a 2nd referendum - the first one was a shambles. Why is taking a second look at such an important question deemed undemocratic? Everyone has the opportunity to vote the same way...

[joegolferg]

Sept 19, 2019 18:44:33 GMT paulus said:

Nope - just saying that the simplistic question put to the people in the first referendum is why we’re now in an un-implementable mess. The question needs to be better posed - we can do that now with the benefit of all the extra information.

My preference has always been for a 2nd referendum - the first one was a shambles. Why is taking a second look at such an important question deemed undemocratic? Everyone has the opportunity to vote the same way...

For the same reason we don't call for a "second general election" after we've had one. I believe that Brexit must be implemented in any form (preferably a deal) before we vote again on any future decision. What would you like to see on the ballot of a second referendum?

[paulus]

False equivalence, the referendum was non-binding - by definition it's not the same as a general election. There's a history of referenda's being repeated around the world - so certainly not without democratic precedent.

I'm no poll expert (bsmooth13 will tell you that!)... but I would've thought it'd be good to understand what people actually want - did every single one of those 17.4million people want a no-deal Brexit? If that's all that's on on offer would they prefer to stay in? Would they like the Theresa May weak-ass deal where we stay beholden to the EU indefinitely while simultaneously throwing away any power we had over them? I suspect not! But how do I know? How does anyone know?

I'll throw a question back at you if I may.... what's your answer to the Irish border problem?

[joegolferg]

Sept 19, 2019 19:19:52 GMT paulus said:

False equivalence, the referendum was non-binding - by definition it's not the same as a general election. There's a history of referenda's being repeated around the world - so certainly not without democratic precedent.

I'm no poll expert (bsmooth13 will tell you that!)... but I would've thought it'd be good to understand what people actually want - did every single one of those 17.4million people want a no-deal Brexit? If that's all that's on on offer would they prefer to stay in? Would they like the Theresa May weak-ass deal where we stay beholden to the EU indefinitely while simultaneously throwing away any power we had over them? I suspect not! But how do I know? How does anyone know?

I'll throw a question back at you if I may.... what's your answer to the Irish border problem?

Well as it stands I'm all for a temporary deal that keeps us in the SM and CU so that would only become an issue at the point of permanently leaving the EU. The best solution I've heard of is to alter and implement a new standards zone in the whole of Ireland. Personally I have no respect for the EU's rules of their capitalism and don't see why any effort has to be made to ensure that good betweem the borders must be checked, if it means that much to them maybe they can put all the effort into some sort of border enforcement. The backstop, I feel, is being used as a weapon against people who want to leave. That said, it's absolutely ridiculous that leave campaigners and politicians put no thought whatsoever into this and it's almost as if they completely forgot about Ireland. Personally, I'd prefer to see Ireland unified and NI dissolved.

[paulus]

So basically a re-introduction of borders after an indefinite interim period where we adhere to EU laws but without any say in their making.

The hard fought Good Friday Peace agreement is the price for leaving the EU. Not sure any of the Irish population, both sides of the border, will be happy with that. Along with a good portion of English. The outcome is likely to be a return to sectarian violence both in Ireland and England - lives will be lost.

And do you think all 17.4million that voted to leave would be happy with that price? Would a small percentage of them want to change their mind if that’s the only option to leave?

None of this extremely important detail was covered in the first referendum - a second is absolutely the most sensible option as new information is now available.

A united Ireland is cloud cuckoo land I’m afraid.

[joegolferg]

Sept 20, 2019 13:09:43 GMT paulus said:

So basically a re-introduction of borders after an indefinite interim period where we adhere to EU laws but without any say in their making.

The hard fought Good Friday Peace agreement is the price for leaving the EU. Not sure any of the Irish population, both sides of the border, will be happy with that. Along with a good portion of English. The outcome is likely to be a return to sectarian violence both in Ireland and England - lives will be lost.

And do you think all 17.4million that voted to leave would be happy with that price? Would a small percentage of them want to change their mind if that’s the only option to leave?

None of this extremely important detail was covered in the first referendum - a second is absolutely the most sensible option as new information is now available.

A united Ireland is cloud cuckoo land I’m afraid.

Well if you read carefully I'm anti border, the border issue would be entirely on the behalf of the EU. I'd happily let people come and go as free as they choose with a new standards of goods rule throughout the entirety of Ireland. If the EU refuses that option then the border would be on them and they are the ones who are ripping up the good Friday agreement. I'm all for no borders, but the EU wants a border to protect its trade rather than the intrests of all Irish people.

[joegolferg]

With regards to a united Ireland I think you're being extremely passive of the past decade of elections and polls. Sinn Fein have gained more and more seats that has almost brought them level with the unionists, and the most recent polls have more saying Yes to a unified Ireland than No. So why is it cloud cuckoo?

[paulus]

The EU have said they would be forced to introduce borders.

The optics of whether that's the EU's fault or the UK's, is to my mind a minor detail. The big detail is that the outcome is likely a return to the troubles. Once that comes, sentiments both sides will harden & the progress that they have made toward re-uniting as a people (as per the polls you rightly point to) will be undone