Brexshit

[joegolferg]

Sept 5, 2019 17:20:16 GMT jacko said:

Sept 5, 2019 15:16:46 GMT joegolferg said:

Just like in the run up to the 2017 GE I'm seeing a lot of centrists now hailing Corbyn as "statesman" and other positive things. Unfortunately this is ONLY because he's putting up a good fight against the no deal scenario. Although I'm happy to see Corbyn gaining mass support from previously hostile people, it exposes how shallow these people are because they have relentlessly attacked him for talking more about austerity than brexit over the past three years. They're litteraly like spoilt children.

Painting all Corbyn sceptics as "Centrists" is equally childish.

He deserves support for his actions in the last few days - he's done exactly what was required in the best interests of the country. Statesmanlike.

You can praise him for that and simultaneously think that he generally a bit rubbish. Much of the criticism of him comes from people on the left who simply believe that with a different leader a Labour majority government would be more likely and I happen to agree with them.

It's not enough to say "if it weren't for the bastardly right wing press everyone would love him". Every Labour leader has to put up with that. Someone with less baggage and a willingness to go on the front foot is needed.

You're going to ask me for an example - and i will cite Clive Lewis. Watch the Channel 4 debate on Monday - he was articulate, passionate and wiped the floor with everyone else on the stage. And i don't think he can be accused of not being left wing being anti trident & highly critical of British intervention overseas despite being in the services himself. And he backed Corbyn in 2015.

I'm not suggesting a coup - Corbyn will fight the next election and i hope he wins - but a clean skin will be needed at some point very soon

I'm talking specifically about centrists, mostly those who didn't have the backbone to stand upto media bias and smears and instead joined in. I'd love to hear of what baggage he has that makes him a poor leader?

My criticism of Corbyn is that he is way too pacifist even in his own party. He should have done a Boris Johnson and "purged" certain blairites earlier on such as - Mann, Watson, Hodge and Phillips. I'll also be very disappointed if Corbyn's EU stance turns out to be an indefinite deal that keeps us on the side.

[joegolferg]

Sept 5, 2019 18:30:41 GMT LKeet6 said:

(I fucking detest rees-mogg; the most hated, for me...)

There's been too many good tweets this week...

[joegolferg]

Who are these absolute goons on both sides that constantly make up these cringey bullshit stories? 😂

[karma4u]

This looks like a pretty good representation of the facts. Not sure though, what do you guys that are living it think?


globalnews.ca/news/5853167/what-is-happening-with-brexit/?utm_expid=.kz0UD5JkQOCo6yMqxGqECg.0&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bing.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dglobal%2Bnews%2Ba%2Bguide%2Bto%2Bunderstanding%2Bbrexit%26form%3DEDGSPH%26mkt%3Den-ca%26httpsmsn%3D1%26refig%3D6e0d05310fb9490e9c624f04733931fe%26sp%3D-1%26pq%3Dglobal%2Bnews%2Ba%2Bguid%26sc%3D0-18%26qs%3Dn%26sk%3D%26cvid%3D6e0d05310fb9490e9c624f04733931fe

[LKeet6]

Depressing as fuck

(And of course Brexit is deciding people's opinions, as opposed to traditional party support; it's the only issue people have ANY knowledge and awareness of. But of course it's a warped and media controlled "knowledge...")

www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/14/tories-extend-poll-lead-to-12-despite-week-of-political-chaos

[cliffs]

London (AFP) - Prime Minister Boris Johnson insisted Sunday that "huge" progress was being made in Brexit talks and declared Britain would break out of the European Union just like the comic book hero Hulk.

Does that not sound exactly like somebody the Yanks know?

[jacko]

Sept 15, 2019 13:05:35 GMT cliffs said:

London (AFP) - Prime Minister Boris Johnson insisted Sunday that "huge" progress was being made in Brexit talks and declared Britain would break out of the European Union just like the comic book hero Hulk.

Does that not sound exactly like somebody the Yanks know?

Yep. The Trumpian tactics are out in force at the moment. Bending the constitution to its limits, lie after lie after lie and absurd statements like this one. All whilst they quietly wreck everything

Also today government ministers went on the tv and compared Jeremy Corbyn to the chickens from Chicken Run. It was supposed to be an insult (ha ha ha you're a chicken) until it was pointed out to them that the chickens in Chicken Run worked highly successfully as a team to achieve their noble objective, so it didn't really work as an insult

[joegolferg]

So during the midst of all this divide, Verhofstadt comes out at a Lib Dem conference to talk about how the world of tomorrow will not be ruled by countries, but by empires which is obviously a subtle hint of how he sees the EU to be in the future. If there was any small amount of doubt that I would fall back into supporting the EU it is now gone. This sort of language does not help the remain side, there are responses from FBPE types who are heavily condemning his choice of words here, or maybe they're actually starting to feel unsettled about an EU empire with its own army. What an absolute shit show on the EU's behalf.

[cliffs]

First one has to build an empire....good luck with that.

[jacko]

Sept 16, 2019 9:45:49 GMT joegolferg said:

So during the midst of all this divide, Verhofstadt comes out at a Lib Dem conference to talk about how the world of tomorrow will not be ruled by countries, but by empires which is obviously a subtle hint of how he sees the EU to be in the future. If there was any small amount of doubt that I would fall back into supporting the EU it is now gone. This sort of language does not help the remain side, there are responses from FBPE types who are heavily condemning his choice of words here, or maybe they're actually starting to feel unsettled about an EU empire with its own army. What an absolute shit show on the EU's behalf.

Noone should ever use the word "empire" (although there's plenty of Brexiters who yearn for a time when we ourselves had one) but he's one relatively unimportant EU politician.

There may well be the odd person in Brussels who would like to see the end of the nation state, but they are few and far between, and massively over reported in the British press. Whenever one of them says something it's blown out of all proportion by the right wing tabloids with no sense of perspective or context.

The "EU Army" is just another glib soundbite thrown out without proper consideration of what it actually means. European defence & security cooperation is already happening and will continue to happen whether we are there or not. And it's totally right that it does so.

Most importantly, nothing so major as an EU army or anything akin to the "EU superstate" could ever happen without the permission of the nation states represented by their elected leaders at EU meetings. And that isn't going to happen anytime soon. The EU don't "lord it over" the nation states, they provide a framework & platform for the countries to cooperate effectively. That's it.

It's funny really, lots of your comments here could have been lifted straight from the comments section of the Express or the Daily Mail, despite the fact your politics are somewhat different to the people who tend to read those publications

[joegolferg]

The EU army has been a long sought after thing from the top table leaders and yes, any member of the EU could veto that idea but the fact remains that the EU itself wants these things including the establishment of an empire. I'm opposed to NATO, so trying to convince me that another institution should have defense isn't going to wash. Every member state already has its own defenses so why does the EU itself need one, when all others could come to the aid of others? Why do we need a European currency? Who the hell are the EU to tell us we can't nationalize industry and services because they have a "competition law" that puts profits before people? These are the actions of an empire in waiting.

Freedom of movement for people is a very nice idea, but with that also comes freedom of movement for corporates who can pick and choose where they operate for their own benefit of cheaper labour. Much of the criticism of the EU is admittedly premature at this point but I do see how those opposed to it are infact looking ahead and can see the inevitable, that the EU will become a cartel for monopolies once the dominant corporations solidify their power (which they quickly are.)

[LKeet6]

Sept 16, 2019 16:25:44 GMT jacko said:

Sept 16, 2019 9:45:49 GMT joegolferg said:

So during the midst of all this divide, Verhofstadt comes out at a Lib Dem conference to talk about how the world of tomorrow will not be ruled by countries, but by empires which is obviously a subtle hint of how he sees the EU to be in the future. If there was any small amount of doubt that I would fall back into supporting the EU it is now gone. This sort of language does not help the remain side, there are responses from FBPE types who are heavily condemning his choice of words here, or maybe they're actually starting to feel unsettled about an EU empire with its own army. What an absolute shit show on the EU's behalf.

It's funny really, lots of your comments here could have been lifted straight from the comments section of the Express or the Daily Mail, despite the fact your politics are somewhat different to the people who tend to read those publications

Given the fact that you know Joe is an intelligent and extremely well read individual, the above should give you pause for thought...

(i agreed with, or certainly understood, a lot of the other stuff you said, but this is an extremely complex issue, as i've said along. So if you'll allow me to lecture you, as you did joe somewhat, this is THE issue where you need to consider both sides, above all others. There's no overall right and left position to be taken on this...)

[paulus]

Empire is a crap word - anachronistic. But we, as a species, need to move towards global administration imho (with local governance & lots of controls obvs) - not just for "the planet's fucked" issues - there'd be myriad benefits to not having artificial divides between people.

Absolutely no system of governance is perfect. Out of all the current world "Empires" - the EU is the most social / liberal leaning - feels like the right horse to back long term for me. And yes, there are uber-capitalists operating within the EU system to entrench the power of the corporates - but that's already happening everywhere. And it's just going to happen at an expedited rate in our insular little backwater, post Brexit.

I believe in the ideal of "an ever closer union" - and we should then work within that system to fix it's inevitable problems.

[LKeet6]

"Boris Johnson expressed surprise to his advisers during lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker as he was informed about the scale of checks still needed on the island of Ireland under his alternative plan for the Irish border, according to EU sources.

The two-hour lunch in Luxembourg was said by both sides to have been “positive” but EU officials conceded the advantage for them had been in being able to spell out the problems directly to the prime minister. “It seems to have helped the penny drop,” said one diplomatic source.

During talks with Juncker and the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, the prime minister was shown in detail how allowing Northern Ireland to stick to common EU rules on food and livestock, known as sanitary and phytosanitary measures (SPS), would still fail to avoid checks on the vast majority of goods that cross the Irish border."

Jesus Christ, this is who we're dealing with. This is the mindset of the people who pushed for Brexit, who convinced supporters/voters it'd all be fine. They don't know what the fuck they're doing. Mogg is the same; he just convinced supporters he gets it by being good (massively overrated!) At debating...

This is why, although I agree with so much that Joe says on this topic, I didn't think the original referendum was a good idea, and I'd still vote remain if there was another vote.

It's not the right time, it's not the right context, as a country we won't do it "right."

I'd rather an already in power labour govt had campaigned on an anti EU (but not leave/referendum) basis, and tried to get reforms for the UK...

[LKeet6]

A fairly informative and unusually fair (not that I agree with all of it!) Summary of corbyn's opinions and plans for a labour Brexit.

Don't agree with him? Fine. But I can not see from this how you can continually accuse him of not stating his position, and not having a plan.

Finally someone who admits it's insanely complex, who says BOTH sides have pros and cons, who says BOTH sides need to be taken seriously and given consideration, and who, (unlike previously remain Boris, and the lib Dems) isn't merely playing opportunistic political power games...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/18/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-referendum-labour-panel