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Post by jacko on Aug 29, 2019 17:49:35 GMT
If there was a referendum tomorrow, i'd vote remain, but i'd like to repeat there are MANY intelligent and left-wing people who are anti-EU, and i don't necessarily blame them if they want to vote leave. The whole debate has become WAY too polarised; which i completely get, because it's a huge issue, which got taken over by bullshit, mostly from the right-wing leave side, but from both sides. And i completely accept and believe passionately that the vast majority of leave voters voted that way for the same reason we got trump, a fuck you to the "establishment" (even though trump and leave couldn't be more establishment if they tried) and out of xenophobia. Not "racism" in a lot of cases, but certainly an "i don't like france/germany/spain/poland type of attitude... A left wing Brexit might exist academically & in theory, but we are so so so far away from it that i would question the sanity of any progressive who would vote to leave in a 2nd referendum. I would argue it's always been largely a right wing project, and even if it wasn't to begin with it sure as hell is now.
I am no lover of the EU as an institution, but i am wide awake to the motives of the majority of people pushing the hardest for us to leave it (and i don't think the majority of those who voted for it are anywhere near aware enough).
It is openly being used as a tool to destroy our democratic norms & institutions, to distract from all the other awful s**t the government is doing, and to even further deregulate and destroy our public services. That's the reality and that's why it should be opposed by anyone interested in the real world needs of ordinary people.
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Post by gregfordyce on Aug 29, 2019 19:03:05 GMT
Again, I'm an American and don't know much about your parliamentary form of government, but is it legal to suspend "prerogue" Parliament?
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Post by paulus on Aug 29, 2019 19:18:37 GMT
Yep it's legal. It's done at the end of every parliamentary "session" - the current session has lasted 2 years, which is quite long - it was extended to deal with the Brexit nonsense.
It's never been done for political reasons before. It's being used in this instance to block Parliament from having enough time to act against a no-deal Brexit... and is therefore most definitely unconstitutional. Whether there's any basis for legal challenge remains to be seen - but it's not looking likely atm.
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Post by paulus on Aug 29, 2019 19:42:29 GMT
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Post by LKeet6 on Aug 29, 2019 20:26:34 GMT
If there was a referendum tomorrow, i'd vote remain, but i'd like to repeat there are MANY intelligent and left-wing people who are anti-EU, and i don't necessarily blame them if they want to vote leave. The whole debate has become WAY too polarised; which i completely get, because it's a huge issue, which got taken over by bullshit, mostly from the right-wing leave side, but from both sides. And i completely accept and believe passionately that the vast majority of leave voters voted that way for the same reason we got trump, a fuck you to the "establishment" (even though trump and leave couldn't be more establishment if they tried) and out of xenophobia. Not "racism" in a lot of cases, but certainly an "i don't like france/germany/spain/poland type of attitude... A left wing Brexit might exist academically & in theory, but we are so so so far away from it that i would question the sanity of any progressive who would vote to leave in a 2nd referendum. I would argue it's always been largely a right wing project, and even if it wasn't to begin with it sure as hell is now.
I am no lover of the EU as an institution, but i am wide awake to the motives of the majority of people pushing the hardest for us to leave it (and i don't think the majority of those who voted for it are anywhere near aware enough).
It is openly being used as a tool to destroy our democratic norms & institutions, to distract from all the other awful s**t the government is doing, and to even further deregulate and destroy our public services. That's the reality and that's why it should be opposed by anyone interested in the real world needs of ordinary people.
I don't disagree with any of that.
I wanted to place a counterpoint, and 0nce again point out how complex brexit is, once you go beneath that top layer.
It could easily be argued that its MORE "progressive" To want to be out of the EU and enact the labour manifesto on this country. But you're right, to a large extent, that's an academic point.
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Post by jacko on Aug 29, 2019 21:12:03 GMT
and is therefore most definitely unconstitutional. This is the problem.
It's Immoral, cowardly and a number of other unpleasant adjectives, and clearly politically motivated and not "bog standard" as the Tories are attempting to spin it, but by definition it is not unconstitutional.
The Queen takes the advice of her Ministers. If her Ministers advise her to prorogue, she has no choice but to do so. By our unwritten, uncodified constitution that is a-ok and i'd expect any legal challenge to fail on those grounds.
As several former Tory Ministers have pointed out, a fairly dangerous precedent has been set. If any future government of another party ever attempted to push something through without parliamentary approval/debate the Tories will have no right to complain about whatever under handed method that government might seek to use.
The death of actual conservatism on both sides of the Atlantic fascinates me actually. conservatives are supposed to believe in economic stability & the defence of institutions & traditions. The current breed strike me more as right wing anarchists/cultists than conservatives. Willing to destroy everything for some fictional panacea 
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Post by jacko on Aug 29, 2019 21:22:22 GMT
It may however turn out to be a blessing in disguise.
The sensible majority in parliament now have a very tight deadline to prevent the worst from happening, so perhaps rather than having more meetings they may actually do something between now and the time the doors close in the middle of September.
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Post by paulus on Aug 29, 2019 22:46:11 GMT
Yep you got me - wrong word - it is constitutional. But without real precedent. Perhaps Bercow's "it's a constitutional outrage" would have been a better reflection of my intention.
On blessing in disguise... here's hoping, but it's no guarantee at this point. Still not come across a better examination of the left's political shortcomings than Monty Python's Life Of Brian...
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Post by cliffs on Sept 2, 2019 11:15:27 GMT
On both sides of the pond and actually world wide, we as humans are in the middle of "Changing Times".
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 2, 2019 13:29:20 GMT
I'm all for leaving the EU and without a deal but I also understand that doing this abruptly is unnecessary and economically damaging. I'd much prefer to see us leave with a deal that has a reasonable expiration date, not 100% sure if this can be done without the EU spitting out their dummy and refusing to cooperate, but I believe leaving the EU in its entirety is the best thing in the long term for all member states.
The EEC was said to be set up to unite western nations who had previously been at war, but in my opinion the whole European project was a response to the rapid expansion and growth of the USSR. Feeling that the status quo of capitalism was under threat, an institution was needed to not only influence European countries, but also to begin the process of concentrating the wealth and production of the non communist countries in time. As I've said before, the EU today is basically a manager for big corporations and as a result of this we're certainly heading for a monopolized Europe. The fact that member states can't have fully nationalized industry/services is proof of this and I find this to be extremely undemocratic, authoritarian in favour of capital and economically unsustainable for the future.
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Post by jacko on Sept 2, 2019 14:10:43 GMT
We'll be in an election campaign by the end of the week. Labour will need to have a position to campaign on even if they will make more hay campaigning on all the other stuff (and rightly so btw, I still believe most people care more about domestic stuff when they go to vote)
Quite unreal spectacle yesterday - government ministers openly stating that if Parliament passed legislation blocking no deal that the PM/Government would just ignore it (for our American readers, parliament is our supreme law making body, the PM of the day doesn't have a veto over stuff that's passed - if parliament passes something, that's the law and they would be committing a crime by not adhering to it).
Between that and shutting down parliament the contempt the Tories have for people has never been clearer. One rule for them, one rule for the rest of us.  |
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Brexshit
Sept 2, 2019 14:33:23 GMT
via mobile
Post by joegolferg on Sept 2, 2019 14:33:23 GMT
I've even witnessed many leave voters and conservatives on twitter expressing their anger at how Boris and his gang are going about brexit. That said, I'm also quite frightened that Labour could lose a number of seats from leave area's and not claw enough back from other area's that are stymied by stubborn centrists voting lib dem.
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Post by jacko on Sept 2, 2019 14:51:42 GMT
I've even witnessed many leave voters and conservatives on twitter expressing their anger at how Boris and his gang are going about brexit. That said, I'm also quite frightened that Labour could lose a number of seats from leave area's and not claw enough back from other area's that are stymied by stubborn centrists voting lib dem. Boris' whole strategy is built on Northern Labour seats.
His Brexit position will cost him most of the Scottish Tory seats, as well as seats in London & the South West. Probably around 30. SNP back over 50 seats & the Lib Dems going back towards what they used to have.
That means he needs to take 50 seats off Labour in the traditional Labour areas. If those seats vote on Brexit lines Labour may be in trouble. If they vote on all the other stuff, Boris is in trouble
How much of the vote of the two main parties peels off to the Lib Dems & the Brexit Party, and where, basically decides the election.
My prediction would be another hung parliament and a Labour government dependant on SNP/possibly even Lib Dem support on a vote by vote basis.
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Post by paulus on Sept 2, 2019 14:56:56 GMT
Think there's perhaps too much historical hatred of Tories to get the 50 seats off Labour in the northern regions... but I could see them voting Brexit Party in. And then a Tory / Brexit Party coalition to see the no-deal over the line.
We won't be getting any anti-capitalist movement for the next 5 years - in the event of a no-deal Brexit - it'll just be more entrenchment of corp power...
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Post by jacko on Sept 2, 2019 15:10:31 GMT
Think there's perhaps too much historical hatred of Tories to get the 50 seats off Labour in the northern regions... but I could see them voting Brexit Party in. And then a Tory / Brexit Party coalition to see the no-deal over the line. Which is just weird because the people running the Brexit Party are basically Thatcherite Tories on steroids.
If the election is pre end of October it will be very interesting to see just how hard the Tories/Brexit Party fight each other. If the vote splits between the two of them in lots of those Northern seats, Labour will win most of them even if they lose a few votes to the Lib Dems/Greens.
It could be the weirdest election result we've ever seen. There's an evenish four party split with the SNP strong in Scotland & the Greens in the mix aswell. How that translates into seats in our system is basically a crapshoot
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