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Post by paulus on Aug 17, 2019 16:52:45 GMT
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Post by jacko on Aug 17, 2019 18:26:14 GMT
My favourite topic......
I'll just say this for now - much like the Trump presidency, Brexit is nothing other than a vehicle for regressive free market idealogues to wreak their own particular brand of havoc on an unsuspecting population.
Anyone who supports it and claims to be a progressive has done some weird mental gymnastics to reach that position. It's main architects dream is a deregulated tax haven UK with none of the protections we currently enjoy.
As an institution the EU is deeply flawed, but it's reason for being - to promote peace & properity for all its member states -is ultimately noble. European countries working in unison in every area will only get more important as China, the US & Russia continue on the road they are on. The UK (population 65M) is just too small to be a major player outside of a bigger bloc
The worst thing about the last 3 years is that it's all so Orwellian - the campaign peddling it promised the earth, and have now reached a point where their biggest promise is that food & medical supplies will PROBABLY be unaffected. 
And a good chunk of the population insist that they voted to be poorer & our country weaker, and it will all be worth it in the end for the sake of "democracy". Mainly people over the age of 50 who are in the midst of some World War 2 revivalist fantasy. They've never quite got over the mindset that the German & the French are the enemy and they don't care if their children & grandchildren have to suffer for the choice they made 
It's really the greatest act of gaslighting i've ever witnessed - wreck everything and then successfully convince the electorate it was their idea to do so 
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Post by paulus on Aug 17, 2019 19:32:02 GMT
As an institution the EU is deeply flawed, but it's reason for being - to promote peace & properity for all its member states -is ultimately noble. Not just noble - also largely very successful. My favourite tweet in the run-up to the first referendum... |
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Post by jacko on Aug 21, 2019 12:01:04 GMT
So apparently from 1st September, our ministers won't be attending EU meetings on the basis that what goes on in them "doesn't affect us".
Our propaganda rags otherwise known as newspapers will paint this as some kind of victory. That we will be "standing tall, on our own"
In reality it's the beginning of the end of the UK as a major player on the world stage. The Economic, Political & Strategic future of our region will be decided with no British voice in the room.
And the decisions made in the room will have a significant effect on us because of, well, geography. Stuff will happen TO us instead of BECAUSE of us. The very opposite of "taking back control", no? |
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Post by gregfordyce on Aug 21, 2019 14:58:12 GMT
I'm not a citizen of your country, but that sounds right to me. Like it or not, this is a global community and everyone is interdependent on everyone else (to varying degrees). It seems that the regressive elements that are hell-bent on going back rather than forwards (exemplified by the rise of ultra-right-wing strongmen and parties all over Europe and in the US) are gaining a lot of power. Doesn't bode well for the world. Look what it's doing to the US under Trump and the Republicans. Of course, to those regressive elements, this is all "winning" and they couldn't be more pleased. The more isolationist and nationalist the better. Hell, farmers in the US that are filing record bankruptcies due to Trump's trade war with China are still enthusiastically supporting him. In the end, however, I think you are correct. Sadly, no matter how bad things get they will simply blame some "other" instead of themselves.
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Post by jacko on Aug 21, 2019 15:17:03 GMT
It seems that the regressive elements that are hell-bent on going back rather than forwards (exemplified by the rise of ultra-right-wing strongmen and parties all over Europe and in the US) are gaining a lot of power. You're right, but what's really funny is that since we took this catastrophically stupid decision, even the right wing crazies in France, Italy and elsewhere in Europe now realise it would be a stupid thing for them to even consider doing. The Front National in France & the Lega in Italy both used to back leaving or holding a referendum - they no longer do.
Broadly speaking the EU has 75% support in almost all of its member states, because they are smart enough to realise that even though it's deeply flawed, ultimately European cooperation is the way forward.
As a bloc the EU is 500M people ish and can hold its own against the superpowers of the US in China. The UK on our own, 60M people - gets bullied.
It's basic mathematics that so many of my fellow citizens can't seem to grasp 
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Post by gregfordyce on Aug 21, 2019 16:20:38 GMT
It will definitely be interesting to see what happens after you exit the EU. Sadly, it will adversely affect a lot of people that didn't want to leave too.
I will never cease to be amazed by how many people continue to vote against their own self interests. Even when faced with facts and statistics - basic math, as you said - that show they are doing so, they stubbornly refuse to change course.
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Post by paulus on Aug 21, 2019 16:38:03 GMT
People make voting choices based on emotion, not facts and stats... sadly. Doubly sad actually - emotions not only lead to irrational choices, they are also easily manipulated by mass media.
For me - if we can remove the money from the process - we can counter that 2nd problem. The 1st problem isn't ever going away tho...
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Post by paulus on Aug 21, 2019 16:45:17 GMT
So apparently from 1st September, our ministers won't be attending EU meetings on the basis that what goes on in them "doesn't affect us". It's utter BS. For a start we are part of the EU until Oct 31st at least - and depending on how things go, perhaps longer. Loved this bit of satirical protest... tens of thousands of Dutch people have signed up to wave goodbye to the UK on the 31st, in a massive beach party... "“sitting in a deck chair with Dutch chips, French wine and German beer, watching Britain as it closes itself off”... www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-day-beach-party-dutch-netherlands-amsterdam-wijk-aan-zee-a9072781.html |
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Brexshit
Aug 21, 2019 19:30:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by joegolferg on Aug 21, 2019 19:30:18 GMT
My view of the EU has dramatically changed since the referendum and as I'm currently reading Lenin's "Imperialism, the highest stage of capitalism" I'm heavily leaning towards an anti EU stance. I'll post up some thoughts soon.
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Post by paulus on Aug 21, 2019 19:42:39 GMT
Always interested to read your thoughts Joe.
Readying up the boxing gloves...
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Post by jacko on Aug 22, 2019 18:44:18 GMT
Left Wing Brexiters at least have their heart in the right place |
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Post by gregfordyce on Aug 22, 2019 18:54:32 GMT
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Brexshit
Aug 28, 2019 20:23:11 GMT
via mobile
Post by paulus on Aug 28, 2019 20:23:11 GMT
So the suspension of Parliament (aka proroguing) has been rubber stamped by the Queen today - tho she had little choice in the matter.
So the game’s afoot! As much as I think he’s a deeply sinister and dangerous buffoon - gotta hand it to Boris, he’s not here to fuck about...
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Post by LKeet6 on Aug 29, 2019 16:02:18 GMT
If there was a referendum tomorrow, i'd vote remain, but i'd like to repeat there are MANY intelligent and left-wing people who are anti-EU, and i don't necessarily blame them if they want to vote leave.
The whole debate has become WAY too polarised; which i completely get, because it's a huge issue, which got taken over by bullshit, mostly from the right-wing leave side, but from both sides.
And i completely accept and believe passionately that the vast majority of leave voters voted that way for the same reason we got trump, a fuck you to the "establishment" (even though trump and leave couldn't be more establishment if they tried) and out of xenophobia. Not "racism" in a lot of cases, but certainly an "i don't like france/germany/spain/poland type of attitude...
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