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Brexshit
Sept 20, 2019 14:08:06 GMT
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 20, 2019 14:08:06 GMT
Saying that ignoring a vote is authoritarian behaviour is warranted, saying the first vote wasn't democratic is also warranted!
And here again we see how fucked up the whole situation is!
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Post by paulus on Sept 20, 2019 14:22:22 GMT
How can it be authoritarian if people would be voting for it?
It's not going to happen ofc - but make no mistake if Lib Dems could form a majority govt on their own, it'd be solely be because a majority of the country voted to enact this policy.
Drawing a comparison between a (misguided) election pledge and Putin, Xi, Erdogan etc. is absurd imho.
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Brexshit
Sept 20, 2019 14:39:13 GMT
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 20, 2019 14:39:13 GMT
The EU have said they would be forced to introduce borders. The optics of whether that's the EU's fault or the UK's, is to my mind a minor detail. The big detail is that the outcome is likely a return to the troubles. Once that comes, sentiments both sides will harden & the progress that they have made toward re-uniting as a people (as per the polls you rightly point to) will be undone  That's sort of what I'm getting at, the EU are admitting that an Irish border is needed and that is on them, no one else. They have specific rule for their concentration of capital and they'd rather protect that than to keep the peace. If they're unwilling to compromise to make things run smoother then I'm glad we're leaving such a stubborn and uncompromising "union." As all of you have said in here, the EU is not perfect and is infact deeply flawed, but for how long do we keep saying this whilst nothing improves? How does one country go about reforming an institution that refuses to compromise on smaller things such as the Ireland border? This is yet another display of how everything has to go their way and no matter how much resistance we put up against it, nothing will change. I mean just look at Yanis Varoufakis, the former Greek finance minister who quit Syriza in protest against the EU/IMF enforcement of crushing austerity and privatisation in Greece. Even after this he defended the EU and insisted that we can remain and reform. Today, he is against the EU and has lost every bit of confidence in reforming it as it currently stands. All empires fall in the end. |
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Post by paulus on Sept 20, 2019 15:16:06 GMT
Flawed yep, but we've also said it does a lot of good. On balance, I feel we're better in & using our veto / influence.
Sovereignty is an argument sure - but the sort of laws the EU have imposed on us are ones I like to see...
Guarantees of freedom of movement
Improved individuals rights & anti-discrimination laws
Workers rights - this is a biggie!! We have lots of improved conditions due to EU laws; limits on hours, guarantees of time off, annual leave, equal pay, maternity/paternity rights etc.
I'm not really interested in being a US vassel state - which is where I think we'd be heading in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I don't see us heading into some socialist utopia - the primary Brexit architects are all about dismantling the controls on capitalist behavior that the EU have put in place over the last 40 years.
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Brexshit
Sept 20, 2019 15:38:34 GMT
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 20, 2019 15:38:34 GMT
How can it be authoritarian if people would be voting for it? It's not going to happen ofc - but make no mistake if Lib Dems could form a majority govt on their own, it'd be solely be because a majority of the country voted to enact this policy. Drawing a comparison between a (misguided) election pledge and Putin, Xi, Erdogan etc. is absurd imho. I guess "authoritarian" is a phrase that has well known attachments with it, but in a purely definitional sense, it's certainly not "absurd" to suggest that ignoring the "will of the people" is authoritarian; even under the guise of a 2nd vote. The whole thing is a fucking mess. I don't necessarily agree (or to the degree he goes for) with Joe, but he's certainly not being ridiculous when he makes that assertion, in my opinion... |
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 20, 2019 15:42:42 GMT
Flawed yep, but we've also said it does a lot of good. On balance, I feel we're better in & using our veto / influence. Sovereignty is an argument sure - but the sort of laws the EU have imposed on us are ones I like to see... Guarantees of freedom of movement Improved individuals rights & anti-discrimination laws Workers rights - this is a biggie!! We have lots of improved conditions due to EU laws; limits on hours, guarantees of time off, annual leave, equal pay, maternity/paternity rights etc. I'm not really interested in being a US vassel state - which is where I think we'd be heading in the event of a no-deal Brexit. I don't see us heading into some socialist utopia - the primary Brexit architects are all about dismantling the controls on capitalist behavior that the EU have put in place over the last 40 years. If there is one group in politics who recognize that we're definitely NOT heading for a "socialist utopia" after brexit, it is socialists/communists like myself. Yet at the same time it is breaking away from a corporate cartel that will eventually be the making of a more left wing Britain once the younger generation of today become the ruling generation in politics. I too am a big fan of the strong European record on workers rights and the solid regulations on food and other consumable goods. I do fear that an abrupt no deal will leave us worse off and as you say, a vassal state to the US. But I think you keep forgetting that I'm against a no deal from the get go, I oppose it for the same reasons you do. |
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Brexshit
Sept 21, 2019 1:30:23 GMT
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Post by paulus on Sept 21, 2019 1:30:23 GMT
WTF are Labour up to now? It’s in everyone’s interests they remain a credible opposition. Attempting to oust a popular... and elected... deputy leader on the eve of the party conference won’t be inspiring much confidence in the electorate is my guess 😔
Maybe the Lib Dem’s can win that majority after all 😜
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 6:00:47 GMT
😂 Tom Watson is not popular amongst the party members. He's actively agitated against the left and done everything in his power to damage Corbyn's image. He doesn't fit in to the current leadership. He is also still caught up in that Nick Beech scandal and takes money from fascists (Max Moseley) Fuck him.
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 8:13:24 GMT
Also worth pointing out the MSM bias on this... Johnson sacks 21 MP's and is met with a soft response from all but two publications (Mirror, Guardian) Labour seeks to abolish a pointless position that only affects the position of one MP and all media publications are all over it like a rash. It really does make me smile because I know it absolutely pisses off the pundit class and is seen as abnormal.
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 9:24:31 GMT
Again also worth mentioning that Tom Watson in 2016 was caught via internal emails saying this
Corbyn allowed him to carry on as deputy right up until now.
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Brexshit
Sept 21, 2019 10:38:16 GMT
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 10:38:16 GMT
It seems that Corbyn has chickened out of the idea afterall. As I've said before, he is wayyyyy too passive. If he's not careful might morph into a liberal 😂
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Brexshit
Sept 21, 2019 11:25:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by paulus on Sept 21, 2019 11:25:52 GMT
Timing dear boy. Timing. His uneasy partnership with JC has been long known - why bring it to a head just prior to the party conference, with no parliament in session..... ofc the media are gonna give it some focus. Labour are very poor at playing the game. He may not be popular in some parts of the party (ahem momentum) but he’s definitely popular outside it, which is the people they need to appeal to right now... yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Tom_Watson |
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Post by LKeet6 on Sept 21, 2019 11:50:23 GMT
Also worth pointing out the MSM bias on this... Johnson sacks 21 MP's and is met with a soft response from all but two publications (Mirror, Guardian) Labour seeks to abolish a pointless position that only affects the position of one MP and all media publications are all over it like a rash. It really does make me smile because I know it absolutely pisses off the pundit class and is seen as abnormal. spot on. |
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Post by joegolferg on Sept 21, 2019 11:58:06 GMT
Timing dear boy. Timing. His uneasy partnership with JC has been long known - why bring it to a head just prior to the party conference, with no parliament in session..... ofc the media are gonna give it some focus. Labour are very poor at playing the game. He may not be popular in some parts of the party (ahem momentum) but he’s definitely popular outside it, which is the people they need to appeal to right now... yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Tom_WatsonWith respect I'm not going to even view a popularity poll, I'm like you I don't put much faith in them, especially popularity ones. Getting rid of Watson would not damage Labour at all, far more popular MP's have left the party and it had absolutely zero effect (Chuka). Also worth mentioning that Labour today are trying to change the rules of the game. Abruptly removing an ineffective and absent deputy leader from a position that he hasn't been honoring is definitely the right way too go. |
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Post by paulus on Sept 21, 2019 12:46:50 GMT
Just curious how you know that Tom Watson isn't popular among the 500,000 membership if you don't look at polls?
I'd agree that Boris got a soft response to his wholesale culling when he took up the reigns - most of the rags that support Tory are well on message. I've not mentioned it because I'm happy to see him destroy his party. But that's a different issue.
I'm only bothered about Labour because I want to see them do well, I think that means having a broad appeal and capable of housing a plurality of views. This is how TW is viewed outside the party...
"Stands up for ordinary people, Credible, Committed, Hard working and In touch with ordinary people."
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