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Post by joegolferg on Dec 13, 2019 12:50:31 GMT
Every centrist MP who defected from Labour and Tories loses seat t.co/G6GaKzopLy |
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Post by ErixonStone on Dec 13, 2019 14:59:57 GMT
From afar, it very much looked like the idea of remaining was seen as a rebuke of a democratic process. People voted for leaving and - for better or worse - expected that to be upheld and unchallenged. Trying for a second referendum did seem like an attempt to overturn a democratic vote just because other people disagreed.
It sounds a lot like the bogus right-wing attacks on the impeachment of Trump; they've framed impeachment as overturning the election. The Mueller report furthered that narrative.
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Post by jacko on Dec 13, 2019 15:00:53 GMT
And as was obvious, you betray the vote of a majority, you get burnt. The liberals forced Corbyn into offering a 2nd referendum and this is the result. We lost Labour leave constituencies and gained Tory remain constituencies. Fighting for remain should never have been labours fight and wouldn't have been but for the centrists who have absolutely no idea of what working class people want. So the leadership bears ZERO responsibility?
And you've never wondered why some people call it a cult? 
Brexit was an issue, but the brutal reality is not enough people saw Corbyn as PM. Particularly working class people. Media brainwashing or not - that's the truth. The idea that Corbyn understands the working class better than some of the "Centrist" MP's who represent those areas is just a joke btw. Delusional
If it weren't for the very middle class Remainer types you seem to hate so much it would have been even worse. In 2017 most of the gains came from those areas.
The manifesto had way too much in it. It went from being radical to being implausible. Even if I agree with a lot of it and voted for it myself.
I'm genuinely sad that so many people in the North voted Tory. I've been to places like Blyth & Workington and they need serious public investment. We all know the Tories won't do that and in 5 years time they will be worse off than they are now.
But unless you're honest about ALL of the reasons for the defeat, rather than reaching for the comforting lie that it was solely about Brexit and nothing to with leadership and nothing to do with policy, history will only repeat itself.
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Post by hammers1man on Dec 13, 2019 15:52:48 GMT
And as was obvious, you betray the vote of a majority, you get burnt. The liberals forced Corbyn into offering a 2nd referendum and this is the result. We lost Labour leave constituencies and gained Tory remain constituencies. Fighting for remain should never have been labours fight and wouldn't have been but for the centrists who have absolutely no idea of what working class people want. So the leadership bears ZERO responsibility?
And you've never wondered why some people call it a cult?
Brexit was an issue, but the brutal reality is not enough people saw Corbyn as PM. Particularly working class people. Media brainwashing or not - that's the truth. The idea that Corbyn understands the working class better than some of the "Centrist" MP's who represent those areas is just a joke btw. Delusional
If it weren't for the very middle class Remainer types you seem to hate so much it would have been even worse. In 2017 most of the gains came from those areas.
The manifesto had way too much in it. It went from being radical to being implausible. Even if I agree with a lot of it and voted for it myself.
I'm genuinely sad that so many people in the North voted Tory. I've been to places like Blyth & Workington and they need serious public investment. We all know the Tories won't do that and in 5 years time they will be worse off than they are now.
But unless you're honest about ALL of the reasons for the defeat, rather than reaching for the comforting lie that it was solely about Brexit and nothing to with leadership and nothing to do with policy, history will only repeat itself.
The brutal reality is people were terrified at the thought of Corbyn as PM. At least one good thing has come out of this election for Labour. I know so many people who would vote Labour if he wasn't their leader. |
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Post by joegolferg on Dec 14, 2019 17:13:44 GMT
Of course he is responsible, he's half responsible because his pacifism on all smears directed at him (anti semitism, terrorism) allowed him to become a punchbag for the media. He should have rebutted every single smear against him and more importantly, removed any sitti g Labour MP who repeated these smears for their own gain. Let's be honest, millions believed that Corbyn was a terrorist and a racist which, we here, know he is non of those things. He allowed the smear to go on unchallenged and that's how the media won the propaganda war. What are your criticisms of his leadership?
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Post by LKeet6 on Dec 16, 2019 16:18:13 GMT
And as was obvious, you betray the vote of a majority, you get burnt. The liberals forced Corbyn into offering a 2nd referendum and this is the result. We lost Labour leave constituencies and gained Tory remain constituencies. Fighting for remain should never have been labours fight and wouldn't have been but for the centrists who have absolutely no idea of what working class people want. I don't believe labour would have won if they'd taken a leave position. Firstly they would have lost a LOT of votes, secondly they wouldn't have gained as many as you're suggesting there. People would've accused labour of jumping on the leave bandwagon, whereas the Tories were always there. And the issue of the working class feeling "betrayed" by labour hasn't been overcome yet. I'm not sure what more labour can do, but the narrative has been set, this "liberal elite" bullshit that everyone peddles just stays at the forefront. I find it fucking laughable that Corbyn is portrayed as some "champagne socialist," when he's been a grass roots activist all his life, and people say he's become "detached" from working class people from living in London, when his constituency has a LOT of council housing and poor people, whom he's always campaigned for. I've come to the conclusion (only with hindsight I admit!) That this election was impossible to win. Labour's position in Brexit/referendum was entirely grown up and sensible. Hard Brexit was NOT on the agenda in the referendum. So now that we know that's what it is (putting aside all the lying and incompetence from the Tories,) let's vote on hard Brexit or remain. What the hell is wrong with that suggestion?? But "get Brexit done" was all that was required from the Tories. That was their "strategy." Keep Boris away from interviews and debates as much as possible, and keep saying "get Brexit done." Corbyn may not be granted a great legacy by the wider world, but labour activists and left wingers will ALWAYS be grateful to him for taking the party back to the left. And following this devastating defeat, the challenge is to keep it there. |
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Post by LKeet6 on Dec 16, 2019 16:20:11 GMT
From afar, it very much looked like the idea of remaining was seen as a rebuke of a democratic process. People voted for leaving and - for better or worse - expected that to be upheld and unchallenged. Trying for a second referendum did seem like an attempt to overturn a democratic vote just because other people disagreed. It sounds a lot like the bogus right-wing attacks on the impeachment of Trump; they've framed impeachment as overturning the election. The Mueller report furthered that narrative. Hard Brexit was not on the table in that referendum. Nothing even close to that was. All kinds of promises and lies were made about how easy it would be, how stuff we wanted the same would stay the same, and stuff we wanted to change, we would change. They got away with lies, and they broke campaigning rules. It was not "democratic..." |
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Post by LKeet6 on Dec 16, 2019 16:25:53 GMT
And as was obvious, you betray the vote of a majority, you get burnt. The liberals forced Corbyn into offering a 2nd referendum and this is the result. We lost Labour leave constituencies and gained Tory remain constituencies. Fighting for remain should never have been labours fight and wouldn't have been but for the centrists who have absolutely no idea of what working class people want. So the leadership bears ZERO responsibility?
And you've never wondered why some people call it a cult?
Brexit was an issue, but the brutal reality is not enough people saw Corbyn as PM. Particularly working class people. Media brainwashing or not - that's the truth. The idea that Corbyn understands the working class better than some of the "Centrist" MP's who represent those areas is just a joke btw. Delusional
If it weren't for the very middle class Remainer types you seem to hate so much it would have been even worse. In 2017 most of the gains came from those areas.
The manifesto had way too much in it. It went from being radical to being implausible. Even if I agree with a lot of it and voted for it myself.
I'm genuinely sad that so many people in the North voted Tory. I've been to places like Blyth & Workington and they need serious public investment. We all know the Tories won't do that and in 5 years time they will be worse off than they are now.
But unless you're honest about ALL of the reasons for the defeat, rather than reaching for the comforting lie that it was solely about Brexit and nothing to with leadership and nothing to do with policy, history will only repeat itself.
Why is it a joke that he understands the working class, when he's a man who has ALWAYS voted and campaigned for the working class, and lives in a constituency with loads of working class people, who always vote for him and appreciate him; who then becomes leader and makes manifestos that CLEARLY are designed to help working class people. "Joke" smh... "Cult" smh... Pretty juvenile stuff. I don't mean to call you out or get in an argument with you, but if you're going to make highly opinionated statements like that, you should expect people to come back at you... I think people are ignorant, or choose to ignore, corbyn's history. He was close to the unions, involved in the miner's strikes, and always voted and campaigned for the worse off in society. On top of that, the idea that ANYONE connected to the Tory party would understand the working class?!?! Now THAT is a joke. Tell me something, anything, Corbyn has SAID or DONE that shows he's out of touch with the working class. I know you don't have anything other than Brexit (and I don't accept Brexit) so off you go and Google it and we'll see what you come back with... |
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