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Post by ErixonStone on Oct 25, 2019 14:44:53 GMT
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Post by cliffs on Oct 25, 2019 15:16:10 GMT
If PAB could promise a wall paid for by Mexico, why not run on this and see where it can go.
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Post by gregfordyce on Oct 25, 2019 19:18:37 GMT
I'm a big fan as well, thanks for the information. I've tried forever to get my (ultra-right-wing) family to get on board, but they just won't see the logic. They stick to the "my taxes will go up!!!" mantra. When I show them that they will actually SAVE money, they just flat-out refuse to accept it. Facts aren't a big thing with Righties. So my folks pay around $8,000/year for their private health insurance, not counting deductibles, co-pays, and so forth. If their taxes are raised the $4,000/year that the article you referenced cites, that is a savings of over $4,000/year (actually more, with deductibles and co-pays). But they just will. Not. Accept. It. The right has been indoctrinated to despise that evil socialist word "Taxes." And there's no getting around it. Plus, capitalism. Gotta make those health insurance corporations richer ya know. And besides, healthcare isn't a right, it's a privilege, to most Righties  |
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Post by ErixonStone on Oct 25, 2019 20:03:29 GMT
I have started phrasing "premiums" as a tax - a private one, but a tax nonetheless. It comes directly out of your paycheck before you ever see the money, just like a tax does.
We are going to cut your taxes by replacing your bloated private premium tax with a smaller income tax.
The money we aren't paying towards CEO salary, corporate profit and administrative costs is what's being put back into your paycheck. You'll never have to haggle with an insurance company ever again.
Since M4A is the only healthcare option, all doctors and hospitals will be in-network. You are free to go to any doctor you want without needing a referral.
All you have to give up are your copays and deductibles.
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Post by jacko on Oct 27, 2019 13:47:58 GMT
All about the way it's framed.
Right wingers constantly call it "free" healthcare - as soon as the word "free" is used people immediately become sceptical and assume it's the beginning of some communist revolution.
Universal Healthcare paid for by taxation is how the vast majority of the civilized world do it. And for the majority it works relatively well.
In the UK even as when we lurch to the right, our NHS is beyond the pale. Conservative governments de-fund it & wear it down, but they wouldn't dare try to get rid of it. Polls regularly show that a majority would happily pay a bit more tax to make it better (how this would convert into reality is another matter)
On a moral level, genuinely never understood how the richest nation on earth can allow thousands of people to die each year of preventable diseases. It's barbaric. The basic needs of citizens should be the very first concern of all governments, no?
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Post by cliffs on Oct 27, 2019 15:03:34 GMT
The biggest problem I foresee with this is the "available" money. Sort of like SS...the money is there so the gov. borrows some of it and never pays it back. We would need a solid healthcare only tax for this to work.
Now of course you will still get those who think they should not have to pay for something they won't use. I say let them and when they get sick, they have to pay UPFRONT, BEFORE they get seen. And after a diagnosis, again, pay upfront so that we don't end up covering their sickness.
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Post by ErixonStone on Oct 27, 2019 16:18:58 GMT
America prioritizes profit over all else. You name it; profit is the predominant motive for everything.
'Merica, baby!
Even people who don't make profits think this way; it's insane.
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Post by ErixonStone on Nov 11, 2019 4:55:59 GMT
Jimmy Sheridan - aka nevadaballin - posted this message on the TGCT forum:
Trying to respect Doyley and SmilingGoats by not respnding the way I want in that thread, but this has to be said:
This should not be a thing that happens in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, yet, this will be one of many cases - over 500,000 per year - where American citizens lose everything for which they've spent their whole lives working because they dared to get sick.
It's disgusting.
We need Medicare for All.
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Post by jacko on Nov 11, 2019 12:25:01 GMT
Jimmy Sheridan - aka nevadaballin - posted this message on the TGCT forum: Trying to respect Doyley and SmilingGoats by not respnding the way I want in that thread, but this has to be said: This should not be a thing that happens in the wealthiest nation in the history of the world, yet, this will be one of many cases - over 500,000 per year - where American citizens lose everything for which they've spent their whole lives working because they dared to get sick. It's disgusting. We need Medicare for All. Genuinely worried by what Jimmy means by "we're most likely done".
Reprehensible that this should happen to anyone
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Post by gregfordyce on Nov 11, 2019 14:34:25 GMT
Agreed. And this is but one single case of it. There are hundreds of thousands, as he said, every year where similar travesties occur that we never hear about.
Health care is not a privilege. It is a RIGHT. Ridiculous that the quote-end-quote wealthiest nation in the world cannot see this simple truth. And until it does, these horrific stories will continue.
I, too, wonder what is meant by that last sentence...I hope it is not what it sounds like.....
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Post by boffo on Nov 11, 2019 20:48:33 GMT
As someone living an hour from an imaginary line in some water the fact that this can happen to somebody is just so bizarre to me. That any politician in a first world country can run on a campaign that the status quo of American healthcare is good enough or could even be cut and still be considered a serious candidate should not be possible. There are a lot of reasons Trump shouldn't have been a serious candidate but his plan to get rid of the decent first step towards proper healthcare and replacing it with nothing more specific than something should have been near the top of the list. It's one of those things that for whatever reason people will argue against tirelessly right now but if it ever got properly implemented within 10 years everyone will think it's barbaric that they ever went without it.
I'll share the story of my mother-in-law since she lives in the States and had her own scare a few years back. My father-in-law got sick and spent just over a month in the hospital, most of the time in a medically induced coma before he died. We live 9ish hours away and my brother-in-law lives 45 minutes away but is mostly useless so he might as well live on Mars, meaning for the first time in her life she wasn't going to have someone else around to look after her. She was still in the house the two of them bought after getting married and raised the family in and she wanted to remain there(even though an apartment would be the much better option but it's her choice).
It was maybe two or three weeks into his hospital stay when the bills started coming in the mail. He had insurance through work but it didn't cover everything. Me and my wife both ended up taking most of a month-and-a-half off from work to be there for her(my brother-in-law came to the hospital once or twice, part of the useless claim) so we saw the bills coming, usually one or two new ones per day. A few hundred dollars here, a couple thousand there, etc. By the time all was said and done I think it was $20,000-30,000 that was owed out of pocket plus another $15,000 for the funeral. She'd never taken care of the finances before and had no idea how much life insurance he had, so while having to deal with her grief she also spent a good month having to wonder if she'd be able to keep the roof over her head while she got a lawyer and found all the necessary paperwork to see how much money she'd get. Fortunately he had a few policies in place that, once the cheques started arriving two months later, she was able pay off the outstanding bills and still have enough money that if she continues to live thrifty and eventually sells the house she'll probably be able to make it through the rest of her life.
Since she now needed new health insurance coverage and only worked a part time job she was able to qualify for Obamacare. She's a diabetic so without that she wouldn't have been able to pay for either a health insurance plan or her medication, so Obamacare became a literal life saver for her. Then came the time that she was able to receive my father-in-law's social security cheques. She was excited that she may finally be getting in enough money each month to cover her expenses until it turned out this put her over the Obamacare limit and she was no longer eligible. That meant having to go out and get her own health insurance which she could at least now afford, but lo-and-behold it cost almost all the extra money she was now getting each month. She's still managing to get by now and she is the type of person to stress about every little thing but none of this has helped her in the slightest.
Getting to see all this first hand made me realize how much I take Canada's healthcare system for granted and opened my eyes to how backwards and just plain sucky enough Americans are to prevent a similar system from being used in their country.
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Post by ErixonStone on Nov 11, 2019 21:33:26 GMT
This story illustrates what a fucking scam the health insurance industry is.
Means-testing for food, medicine and education should not be a thing.
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Post by gregfordyce on Nov 11, 2019 21:42:23 GMT
Wow, what a story boffo. A very, very sad pathetic story. As long as corporations are allowed to buy politicians - oops, sorry, I mean "contribute to candidates' election funds" - then we will never see universal healthcare/medicare-for-all in the U.S. Profits have NO place in healthcare, but yet there are hundreds of billions of dollars in profits at stake, so they will always take precedence over anything else. Even people's lives. Which is about all you need to say about the US - money over everything. And a lot of the very people who could use universal healthcare the most are the ones screaming "socialism!!" and wearing their red fascist MAGA hats proudly.
It says a lot about a country how it treats those most in need, the "least of these," as Jesus put it. By that yardstick, the US is a 4th-world shithole, to quote our great President.
To put some more perspective on that - I recall a story I read about 3-4 years ago, about a small town in Tennessee that had privatized its fire department (because taxes paying for fire departments is that evil socialism!). People had to pay the fire department if they wanted to be covered, like insurance. One particular couple decided they didn't want to participate in it; sadly, their house caught on fire one night. They got outside and called the fire department, which showed up a few minutes later in their fire engine, sirens blazing, then proceeded to park in the street and just watch the house burn. All of the neighbors up and down the street came out and stood in the street, watching the couple's house burn. I remember how INSANE the photo they attached to the story was - dozens and dozens of people, including the FIRE DEPARTMENT, standing in the street in front of this once-beautiful home - just watching it BURN TO THE GROUND. A few hours later it was all over. The Fire Department then sprayed the ruins with water, to prevent sparks from flying up and maybe starting fires elsewhere, possibly PAYING people's houses. Then they took off. When a reporter interviewed the fire chief, asking how he could just sit there and watch the couple's house burn to the ground he said "we're a capitalist country, they didn't pay for the service. This is the result. Maybe next time they'll pay for their fire service."
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Post by boffo on Nov 11, 2019 22:09:43 GMT
Fortunately everything worked out well enough for my mother-in-law that she's still able to live her life well enough but the "system" has certainly tried all it can to prevent that(as sounds to be the case as well when reading nevadaballin's full story) and she would be so screwed if not for that life insurance money.
It's so sad that so many Americans view socialism as such a dirty word even though they don't really know what it is as they equate it to communism and they already benefit from it in all the same ways other first world nations do minus the healthcare. And fire service in one Tennessee town.
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Post by ErixonStone on Nov 13, 2019 17:34:18 GMT
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