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Post by ErixonStone on Jul 31, 2019 3:07:39 GMT
In response to Jacob's post in the Trump thread which was a recap and response to the shenanigans over at TGCT, I thought I would share the story of my deconversion from religion: Not only does half of this not make any sense to me as a Christian-turned-Agnostic, but it’s just gross to hear. I almost got sick just typing those words to share them. Calling homosexual marriage “antichrist” is especially terrible, because my daughter is bisexual, and there’s no reason she shouldn’t be allowed to marry a certain sex/gender once she’s older. My breaking point with this post was calling transgender people “hybrid frankenstein monsters,” which is absolute hate speech. I was raised Roman Catholic and attended a Catholic school from the second grade, but by the eighth grade, I had pretty much discarded the religion - so much so, that I refused to attend a Catholic high school. Still, I held onto a belief in the Christian god, Yahweh. I learned about evolution and geology, and rationalized that the six-day creation story and geology could somehow both be true because there was no way to measure the length of one day before there were any humans. Who's to say how long a "day" was back 4.3 billion years ago? I learned that the Pyramids in Egypt were not built by Hebrew slaves, and instead by Egyptian engineers and builders. But, surely, there were Hebrews there, right? I learned that beloved family members were homosexual; I learned that this was not a choice. Surely, God wouldn't make homosexuals if he loved everyone and hated gays, so He must love them too. All the time, reality chipped away at what I was taught, as I learned that the world is much more complex than I had ever conceived. All my adult life, I never really gave it much thought. I just went on not thinking about it and just believing that a Catholic god existed, but he was one whose morals exactly matched mine. Then I became a dad. With a lot of help from doctors who all happened to not be Catholic - or even Christian at all. I learned about human biology and biochemistry. I learned about stem cells. November 15, 2014. Pope Francis makes the following comments: The dominant thinking sometimes suggests a false compassion, that which believes it is helpful to women to promote abortion; an act of dignity to provide euthanasia; a scientific breakthrough to produce a child and consider it to be a right, rather than a gift to welcome; or to use human lives as guinea pigs, presumably to save others. We are living in a time of experimentation with life. But a bad experiment. Making children rather than accepting them as a gift, as I said. Playing with life. Be careful, because this is a sin against the Creator: against God the creator, who created things this way.The Pope, the head of the Church denounced the very best day of my life. Certainly, this god is not talking to this Pope. The Church is dead to me. Early last year, I started to consider the question again, but this time, I started to listen to the people already saying that they didn't believe. I didn't even really know that these people existed. I thought, everyone believes in something. I started to seek answers. I watched a ton of online content. I listened to people who believed in a god but weren't Catholic. I listened to people who believed in a different version of this god, or a different god altogether. I listened to people who didn't believe in any gods, and I noticed that they almost always declined to make a bold assertion. They said they didn't see any evidence for a god but that they'd be open to believing if evidence was given to them. Each time someone presented what they believed to be evidence, they explained why the argument was fallacious and did not lead to a definitive answer. When someone presented a specific belief about a god, they explained how that god would be impossible, or how the claims made about that god were unsubstantiated. In September, 2018, for the first time, I identified as atheist: I no longer believe in any gods. No longer am I bound to a prescribed moral code that allows no room for nuance. No longer do I need to fear Hell. For the first time, I began to live for this life which is the only one we know we're going to have. In addition to the god question, I began using critical thinking in all facets of life and adopted a Humanist set of morals: whether my actions are moral is solely dependent upon the well-being of myself and other human beings. In other words: Enjoy yourself and don't be a dick. My life - and everyone's life - will be remembered for the way I treated people and for the impact I had on people while I am alive on Earth. |
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Post by paulus on Jul 31, 2019 9:35:52 GMT
Interesting to read your journey. Studies indicate that religious people perceive atheists as less moral. However lots of other studies and most of the obvious evidence points to the opposite.... how much evil has been done in the name of some god or other? Alongside the absolute lack of evidence - one of the real problems is how many billions of people believe in different god(s) - they all have the same zeal about their chosen deity - and they can't all be right... so that makes it more likely that none of them are.
I was raised atheist - was forced to attended school church when I was younger, but absolutely none of it rubbed off on me. In my mid-twenties went looking to see if there was anything "spiritual" in me - didn't find it.
The scientific story is far more majestic and interesting to me - it's deep, complex and is still being written - we can take part in it.
Compared to...
The creationist story that has all been written already and your job is just to blindly accept the rules as interpreted by a controlling elite, typically men.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 14:17:13 GMT
Interesting to read your journey, Patrick.
I was raised as a Methodist in a very conservative house. I was never forced into a school with the same affiliation, in fact I went to a Catholic college (by choice, but religion was a very minimal factor).
Looking back I was never really that religious, and I guess I never figured it out until the church started making big changes. During and after college, I almost never went to church. As a kid, I never actively practiced religion aside from what was forced on me by my parents, and as time went on I prayed less and less. At the time I still believed in God, but the first thing that stuck out to me as “huh, maybe I’m not a Christian” was that I felt like praying couldn’t do anything. Like, based on science as well as what I’d seen, it was ridiculous to think saying something to someone we have no proof exists would fix anything. But I still called myself a Methodist out of stubbornness...
Now, both of my siblings, even the one living in the middle of Trump country West Virginia, are progressive liberals. They also both practice religion much less than they did as kids (though both still identify as Christian, where I don’t). We love and miss our parents dearly, but I think all three of us were pretty tired of their resistance to change.
My wife is also a liberal, though she still calls herself a Protestant Christian. That said, she supports my “switch” in religion, even if I was really like this all along and never realized it.
My breaking point was in February of this year when the Methodist voted against allowing LGBTQ+ individuals to be part of the clergy. My local Methodist church was against this decision, and has fought the decision. Still, my thinking is if God was real, and He truly loved all of his children, why would he let this happen? Why would He let all of the racism and corruption in office continue? If He hated homosexuality, why would He create homosexuals?
Not to mention, the science part of things. Science explains how the universe was created. Science says that there’s no way to tell if something is real without actually observing it. And as I’m a very scientific-minded person, that’s what I believe. When the Methodist church became “officially” homophobic, I no longer felt respect for it or an obligation to continue to support it. And now I’m finally free. It was such a release to not deal with it.
So officially I’m an Agnostic Atheist, but I’m certainly not anti-religion. Although I believe what I believe and nobody can change that, I’m all for freedom of religion and allowing people to believe what they believe. I’m certainly not someone who’ll try to “convert” those of another religion.
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Post by ErixonStone on Jul 31, 2019 16:20:21 GMT
Science explains how the universe was created. Science says that there’s no way to tell if something is real without actually observing it. Science does not explain how the universe began. The farthest we are able to take it is to a single point (the singularity) at a time roughly 13.8 billion years ago, but we haven't been able to determine a cause or what the mechanics were. We describe the beginning of the universe as a rapid expansion of energy and matter, but that is an outcome, not a mechanic. When the Methodist church became “officially” homophobic Many Methodists are not homophobic and outright reject the Church's decision. So much so that there is a very strong possibility that the Church will split. It's curious to me that people decide the morality of a god, and not the other way around. I’m certainly not anti-religion. Although I believe what I believe and nobody can change that, I’m all for freedom of religion and allowing people to believe what they believe. I’m certainly not someone who’ll try to “convert” those of another religion. In contrast, I am anti-theist. I think that dogma and superstitious thinking are inherently and unnecessarily harmful to human beings. I also think that people who do not follow such dogma are more likely to act with empathy. There isn't any positive action taken by a religious person in the name of their religion that a secular person could not take without religion. However, there does exist evil action taken in the name of religion that could not be taken in the name of no religion. I do support a person's right to follow any religion they "choose" because one cannot control what they believe to be true. You are either convinced that something is true or you are not. I only encourage everyone to do the research, listen to others' points of view and to think critically. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2019 17:00:53 GMT
Well I believe the Big Bang Theory so I guess that’s where I get the “science explains it all” portion.
As for the Methodist Church, I understand that many aren’t homophobic to the level of far-right Christians, in fact they specifically said they're okay with LGBTQ members, but not allowing homosexuals to be part of the clergy is still a degree of homophobia, going by this definition:
But that's also taking it very literally
I think that decision just sent me over the edge and caused me to realize that my past experiences made sense.
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Post by ErixonStone on Jul 31, 2019 18:52:30 GMT
Re: The Big Bang
The Big Bang Theory describes a rapid expansion of matter and energy originating from a single point at a specific time nearly 14 billion years ago. It just doesn't explain beyond that. The laws of physics break down at that point, and the density of mass becomes asymptotic.
We don't yet understand what might have existed before the "big bang" or its mechanics - we only know the aftermath.
Was there a universe before this one?
Is there more than one universe?
Did the universe exist in some other form prior to the "big bang"? We don't know the answer to any of these.
Re: Homophobic Methodists.
Unfortunately, the Methodist Church, as an entity in its current state, is homophobic. My point was that the individual members of that Church are not necessarily homophobic, and enough of them disagree vehemently that there is a good chance they'll start their own version of the Methodist Church.
That practice is an exercise in prescribing their god's morality based on the morality of the members. That's actually how it usually happens and why there are so many Christian Churches (the entities, not the physical buildings). If there was one god who prescribed true objective morality, then all humans would have that same sense of morality innately.
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Post by gregfordyce on Jul 31, 2019 22:20:48 GMT
This is a pretty difficult topic! I was raised Methodist also, and my parents are (now anyway) hard-core right-wing Christians, who believe and repeat everything they hear on Fox/from Trump's mouth, and of course most of the Methodist BS such as homosexuality is wrong, etc. I never bought into any of it growing up, and as I grew out of my teens and into my twenties, my parents went from official Democrats to hard-right Republicans, while I went further and further left in my beliefs. So much for one's environment shaping one's ideals. I had many gay friends in HS and College, and still do to this day. I have always known they are born that way, that it is not a choice, and I know that God loves them as much as he loves anyone else or he wouldn't have made them that way, and there is nothing wrong with being LGBTQ in any event. I stopped believing in religion shortly after HS, when I realized it has nothing to do with God or Jesus or faith. I believe in God and I worship Him in my own way, in my heart, and I don't need an organized corporation telling me what to do or say or believe when it comes to Him. Religion has caused more death and destruction and evil in this world than just about anything anyway. Most religious leaders - at least the really public ones - and their lemming-like flocks are hypocrites who would crucify Jesus all over again if he returned tomorrow, for being a brown-skinned socialist libtard.
I respect those who are atheist or agnostic. I do not respect those who attempt to ram their religious beliefs down my throat, or attempt to speak for God by telling me that I will go to Hell for supporting abortion or stem cells or gay marriage or whatever. I believe you can comfortably believe in both Creation and Evolution at the same time - God created the universe by starting it and all things in motion with the Big Bang, just as he created evolution and natural selection. I do not believe in the Bible, or that it is the "Word of God," as it was written by men, thousands of years ago, and is thus rife with human error, lies, hyperbole, opinion, and bias, but I do think it has some good lessons in it here and there. I believe that if more people stopped the "team" mentality in general - my religion, my country, my state, my city, my neighborhood, my school, my political party, my skin color, my sexuality, my gender, blah blah blah - the world might finally achieve lasting peace. And religion is just another team for people to belong to and use as a "better than" some "other" they can use to feel superior to. Anyway.
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Post by jakejames on Aug 1, 2019 11:51:06 GMT
This is some topic! Fair warning, I'm a different name over on the TGC forum. Paulus, we messaged awhile back about playing some Rocket League with Dan (hmammoth) but you were on PC and me on PS4. I am not using my real name here for reasons below.
OK, here goes...
I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. I was in the religion for over forty years of my life, and have been out of it for less than a year. My kids (young adults) have left with and my wife (also born into the religion) is holding on but starting to see it for what it is. I am coming to grips with the fact that I was raised in an actual cult. It's fucked up.
The religion has a huge problem with shielding pedophiles, has made around a half dozen predictions of the end of the world (the last in 1975) and requires people to shun those who decide to stop. This applies even to family and is starting to happen to my family as we speak. The fake name is what I use on social media, YouTube and other platforms in order to have these discussions and hold onto relationships (mostly for my wife's sake) as long as I can. I realize that friendships conditional on remaining in a religion are not real friendships, but it is also really rough when your entire social circle was made up of JWs. We were told never to befriend outsiders (called "worldly" people) unless it was to convert them. It's a lonely place when you decide to stop practicing. And they know it. Many, many people have returned to the faith even though they know it is untrue just to salvage family relationships and friendships that were lost due to simply changing their mind. It is emotional blackmail, plain and simple.
Much like most Christian religions, it is completely homophobic and sexist. Gay people are told that they can change, women are to be totally submissive to their husbands and congregation is completely and totally run by men.
The gay issue is a personal one for my family since my daughter is questioning what her orientation is. This has been happening for about 3 years or so. Regrettably, we told her to "not jump to any conclusions" since she was young at the time, rather than just simply telling her that whatever she is and whoever she is attracted to will have no bearing on how we feel about her. This mistake has been rectified, we apologized (and apologized, and apologized) and she is feeling much more secure about things at home and with the family. The thing is, the religion would have required us to kick her out of the house (she's a legal adult now) and cut off all contact with her. This realization was one of the main things that started me down the road of leaving the cult and not looking back.
I'm figuring out what I believe at the moment. I'm probably somewhere in the agonistic - deist camp. Something started it all, but that something is not too concerned with the day-to-day issues we get all bent out of shape over. I can't imagine that an all-powerful creator of a seemingly infinite universe cares if two dudes adopt a kid. It just doesn't check out.
Anyway, that's me. There is far, far more to my story, much of it horrific. But I just want to say thanks for starting the forum (paulus) and this thread (jkessler).
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Post by paulus on Aug 1, 2019 12:03:31 GMT
All these posts are super interesting to me - having never really been on the inside. I have a new found admiration for people who manage to pull themselves away from the more pernicious aspects - it clearly takes a lot of strength and willpower to walk away from a religion. It was ErixonStone ‘s thread btw JJ.... but he’s a relaxed kinda guy and I’m sure won’t hold it against you 😉 |
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Post by jakejames on Aug 1, 2019 12:19:50 GMT
All these posts are super interesting to me - having never really been on the inside. I have a new found admiration for people who manage to pull themselves away from the more pernicious aspects - it clearly takes a lot of strength and willpower to walk away from a religion. It was ErixonStone ‘s thread btw JJ.... but he’s a relaxed kinda guy and I’m sure won’t hold it against you 😉 Crap, my bad ErixonStone... I will take my ban and emerge a better person.  |
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Post by gregfordyce on Aug 1, 2019 14:07:11 GMT
This is some topic! Fair warning, I'm a different name over on the TGC forum. Paulus, we messaged awhile back about playing some Rocket League with Dan (hmammoth) but you were on PC and me on PS4. I am not using my real name here for reasons below. OK, here goes... I was raised as a Jehovah's Witness. I was in the religion for over forty years of my life, and have been out of it for less than a year. My kids (young adults) have left with and my wife (also born into the religion) is holding on but starting to see it for what it is. I am coming to grips with the fact that I was raised in an actual cult. It's fucked up. The religion has a huge problem with shielding pedophiles, has made around a half dozen predictions of the end of the world (the last in 1975) and requires people to shun those who decide to stop. This applies even to family and is starting to happen to my family as we speak. The fake name is what I use on social media, YouTube and other platforms in order to have these discussions and hold onto relationships (mostly for my wife's sake) as long as I can. I realize that friendships conditional on remaining in a religion are not real friendships, but it is also really rough when your entire social circle was made up of JWs. We were told never to befriend outsiders (called "worldly" people) unless it was to convert them. It's a lonely place when you decide to stop practicing. And they know it. Many, many people have returned to the faith even though they know it is untrue just to salvage family relationships and friendships that were lost due to simply changing their mind. It is emotional blackmail, plain and simple. Much like most Christian religions, it is completely homophobic and sexist. Gay people are told that they can change, women are to be totally submissive to their husbands and congregation is completely and totally run by men. The gay issue is a personal one for my family since my daughter is questioning what her orientation is. This has been happening for about 3 years or so. Regrettably, we told her to "not jump to any conclusions" since she was young at the time, rather than just simply telling her that whatever she is and whoever she is attracted to will have no bearing on how we feel about her. This mistake has been rectified, we apologized (and apologized, and apologized) and she is feeling much more secure about things at home and with the family. The thing is, the religion would have required us to kick her out of the house (she's a legal adult now) and cut off all contact with her. This realization was one of the main things that started me down the road of leaving the cult and not looking back. I'm figuring out what I believe at the moment. I'm probably somewhere in the agonistic - deist camp. Something started it all, but that something is not too concerned with the day-to-day issues we get all bent out of shape over. I can't imagine that an all-powerful creator of a seemingly infinite universe cares if two dudes adopt a kid. It just doesn't check out. Anyway, that's me. There is far, far more to my story, much of it horrific. But I just want to say thanks for starting the forum (paulus) and this thread (jkessler). Wow. I am so sorry you are going through that. I had heard of JW's being cult-like, but had no idea it was that bad. Sounds a lot like Scientology in many regards. Best wishes to you and your family! |
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Post by ErixonStone on Aug 1, 2019 14:31:37 GMT
jakejames. That's it! You're banned! J/k. If you have never heard of the YouTube activist Telltale, I would encourage you to look him up. He is a former Jehovah's Witness speaking against the dangerous messages they preach. I didn't know very much about Jehovah's Witnesses until I came across his channel. Now I know some stuff, but still not a whole lot. I am really glad to hear that you were able to overcome their hateful teachings in order to support your daughter. There is community among non-believers. You and your family are not alone.
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Post by jakejames on Aug 1, 2019 18:52:50 GMT
jakejames . That's it! You're banned! J/k. If you have never heard of the YouTube activist Telltale, I would encourage you to look him up. He is a former Jehovah's Witness speaking against the dangerous messages they preach. I didn't know very much about Jehovah's Witnesses until I came across his channel. Now I know some stuff, but still not a whole lot. I am really glad to hear that you were able to overcome their hateful teachings in order to support your daughter. There is community among non-believers. You and your family are not alone. I have watched a bunch of his stuff. The artwork is very calming. IMO the best YouTuber regarding ex JW is the John Cedars channel. Lovely guy named Lloyd Evans who is a regular uploader, a former elder in the organization and not a ranting lunatic. If you have any questions about crazy stuff JW's believe, I'm your guy. We were a model family on the surface. I don't want to say it's all bad memories, because it isn't. By and large, they are lovely people who are being manipulated by an organization that demand complete, unquestioned obedience (after all, they are representing God on earth) and as a result they do some really terrible things in the name of "love". |
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jacobkessler
Global Moderator
Fight corruption before it's too late.
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Post by jacobkessler on Aug 1, 2019 23:34:53 GMT
So I made a stupid mistake and signed up with a different username than I use on TGCT- might not seem like a big deal, but with the way Apple's password stuff works it was quickly becoming a pain. So don’t worry, the fact that @jkesslertgc is deleted does not mean I’m gone!
Anyways, your post about being a former JW is very interesting. Like Greg, I'd heard that it was cult-like, but I never imagined it would be that bad. I'm so sorry to hear about all that stuff you've gone through, and I really hope things improve.
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Post by cliffs on Aug 4, 2019 21:49:59 GMT
I had religion forced upon me as a lad and as soon as I graduated high school, I put all religious beliefs behind me and became a true agnostic.
I stay away from religious debates as it does nothing but cause true believers too much pain when confronted by questions asked about the Greatest Story Ever Told.
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